Nearly December Update

[lurkalot]

Just reported a problem. Though not sure if I posted in the right place, never used git before. 

You did it just great and now the installer should be fixed

Thanks.  Works a treat now.  Works well, and looks nice too.  Great job. 

[LiroyvH]

Awesome work guys

[meetdilip]

I really love the new board icons.

[Gargoyle]

Looks cool!!!

Thanks Dev Team!!!

[Arantor]

I really love the new board icons.

That was the most important thing in the whole update? Wow.

@Gargoyle: Oh there's more to come yet

[Gargoyle]

Can't wait to see!!!

My holiday work schedule and preparation have kept me from playing with the latest github goodies so its nice to see the direction its heading. Think I'll have to grab it soon and check it all out!!

[Ricky.]

Really nice, 2.1 now looks even more exciting.

[Gargoyle]

Just installed the latest from git...

I likey!!!!

[Gargoyle]

Ok... One thing...

I really really don't know where to put this as I do not believe it is a bug and the software is still alpha stage. Please forgive me if this is improper protocol.

The "Likes" system seems to not show the users overall "likes".. If 3 posts were liked I can't see where that info is displayed. I would think it would be like "bragging rights" so to speak... User1 has had 35 likes while user2 has none type of thing. Wondering if it should be someplace in the display.template area? Not sure..

Anyway.. apologize if this is improper. Please direct me to proper avenues where feedback can be given if needed.

THANKS!!!!!  Looks FANTASTIC!!!!

[Arantor]

It's not a bug. It's not a feature. It's an acknowledgement that the likes stuff is a WIP and we're not sure what form it should take.

The problem with likes is that trying to have a total only works if you only ever have likes on posts. Except the system has no such limitation; it physically allows for extending without too much work onto just about anything else while you're at it. Consider, on that other forum I implemented likes for, you had a sort of conversation/timeline thing, called thoughts, where you could like them. Since you've already got two possible things to like there, what would having likes in the poster area actually mean?

Would it be the count of likes of everything you've posted? Would it be the count of liked posts only? I realise the questions are less relevant for unmodded forums but for modded forums (and believe me, in 2014 we're going to see plugins that make use of this ) this is more important.

Wait until the alerts tab actually has alerts in it (oops, did I just spoil that?)

[Gargoyle]

Ah ok... sounds cool!!

I'm just speaking from experience with my users and they all love the "competition" of it all. Thats why I had to modify Karma like I did.. They compete. See who gets the most, etc...

I'm sure once its completed in "base" form there would be a way to pull the info if needed?? Or is it not "assigned" to a user so to speak? Either way I love the new design and features.

Alerts tab you say??  Hmmmm...

[Arantor]

It's not assigned to a user as such. It's assigned to the thing that has been liked, e.g. 'msg 1, liked by user 2 at timestamp 1234567890'

This means it is portable to other things (since the 'msg' part is not set in stone and can be any identifier) and doesn't get into the realms of 'we have to update a ton of values if a user disappears' or 'we have to update a ton of values if a post is reattributed'

[Xarcell]

I'm glad Arantor is on board the SMF, as I've always felt that is where he truly belongs.

There are things that I have seen that I like, and there are things I see that I don't like.

Things I Don't Like:

1.| The Menus.
2.| Removal Of The Admin Sidebar - My Dear Old Friend.
3.| Admin Homepage - WTF?
4.| All the UI Hover Effects, As Hover Effects Should Be Purely Cosmetic.
5.| The Overall Theme - Looks A Decade Old

Things I Do Like(pretty much everything else, but notably):

1.| Cleanup Of Redundant/Unnecessary Permissions - and I hope this continues further.
2.| Theme SMF Version Checker
3.| Spell Checker Update
4.| The Removal Of Outdated Systems Such As: eAccelerator, etc.
5.| Category Descriptions.
6.| Likes
7.| Admin & Moderate Alert Counts In Main Menu
8.| Ditching "Core Features" Page.

Then Of Course:
9.| Drafts
10.| SCEditor - which I love BTW.

Suggestions:

1.| Rename "Admin" to "Manage" in the main menu.
2.| Admin Homepage Makeover: why have an additional navigation on the admin homepage? There should be reports, charts, and graphs to summarize use of site, and stats; such as: most online today, new users, total members,  total page view count, Total likes count, total post count, total bans, total warnings, total categories, total boards, total child boards, total subscriptions, total "report to moderator, total males, total females, total members in various post groups, so on and so forth(helps with website administration & marketing). Charts & graphs could illustrate  today compared to month, compared to year, compared to previous year. Or basically, the admin homepage should be a summarization of reports, while the reports page calls for full printable reports.

My Take

I'm glad to see SMF moving forward as I feared it was dead. Now that Arantor is on board the Dev team, I'm actually considering trying to help out by making the default theme responsive, which I'm 100% positive I can do, but not 100% positive that I have the time to commit to finish work. Actually to be truthful, I've already played with it, and the only thing I've found that cannot retain it's layout/appearance responsibly, is the sub-boards. All tables would have to be replaced with div's or lists, but can retain it's current appearance. Then again, this is supporting only IE9+...

Dev Team: keep up the good work.

[shadow82x]

I'm loving the UI changes.

[Arantor]

Telling us what you don't like isn't helpful. Telling us *why* you don't like it would be infinitely more useful because "I don't like that" doesn't tell us what should be improved.

Which menus don't you like? There are multiple things that come under the definition of 'menus'. What don't you like about them? What, in your opinion, should be done to improve them? (No, removing them doesn't count.)

The sidebar went for multiple reasons, as previously explained and I'm absolutely happy with the fact they went - because we made sure there were alternatives of navigation.

The admin page revamp... more people like it than don't, and I'm happy with that. You can always change it if you don't like it, but again what would you put there instead?

The hover effects are mostly purely cosmetic. The menus are slightly different now and not purely CSS based - and are actually more usable than SMF 2.0's for that exact reason.

The theme 'looks a decade old'... no it doesn't. That wasn't the style a decade ago (I remember it well) But remember that we have to keep the default theme relatively bland (to a point) as a canvas for being built upon.


1. That would imply combining the two menus which isn't going to happen at this stage. I'm not saying it won't happen but they do different things, go to different places and it is not particularly logical to combine *those*. You have different tasks for admin and for moderation.

2. Partly because the sidebar went and partly because there was *already one there that was much the same*. Look back at 2.0's, you'll see the block further down of 8 items with big icons and descriptions. We deliberately expanded upon that to cover off the lack of sidebar. The biggest advantage of the sidebar was discoverability and we not only revamped the admin front page, we also made sure to *always* list the disabled features.

I've seen other forum platforms that do this and I find it largely useless - if I want it, I'll look it up. XenForo doesn't do it (has a few stats but nothing particularly useful), IPB does it and I find it just distracts me from getting to do what I need to do.

All tables would have to be replaced with div's or lists, but can retain it's current appearance. Then again, this is supporting only IE9+...

There are two problems here. One is that we need to continue supporting IE8, and the other more important one is that there are quite a few things that are actually tabular data that shouldn't be changed. The various logs, amongst other things.

[Xarcell]

Telling us what you don't like isn't helpful. Telling us *why* you don't like it would be infinitely more useful because "I don't like that" doesn't tell us what should be improved.

I thought I did this somewhat, but I guess I need to clarify.

Which menus don't you like? There are multiple things that come under the definition of 'menus'. What don't you like about them? What, in your opinion, should be done to improve them? (No, removing them doesn't count.)

Menu's should expand down, not have a dropdown hover effect.

The sidebar went for multiple reasons, as previously explained and I'm absolutely happy with the fact they went - because we made sure there were alternatives of navigation.

Other than the "security reason", I see no reason why it should have been removed. However, I know bringing this up isn't even really debatable, so no use in discussing it. I was merely mentioning it was preferred.

The admin page revamp... more people like it than don't, and I'm happy with that. You can always change it if you don't like it, but again what would you put there instead?

2.| Admin Homepage Makeover: why have an additional navigation on the admin homepage? There should be reports, charts, and graphs to summarize use of site, and stats; such as: most online today, new users, total members,  total page view count, Total likes count, total post count, total bans, total warnings, total categories, total boards, total child boards, total subscriptions, total "report to moderator, total males, total females, total members in various post groups, so on and so forth(helps with website administration & marketing). Charts & graphs could illustrate  today compared to month, compared to year, compared to previous year. Or basically, the admin homepage should be a summarization of reports, while the reports page calls for full printable reports.

You've already answered this.

The theme 'looks a decade old'... no it doesn't. That wasn't the style a decade ago (I remember it well) But remember that we have to keep the default theme relatively bland (to a point) as a canvas for being built upon.

Saying 10 years might be an exaggeration, but in truth maybe a 7 year old design. I know this because I was designing themes that looked better than this 7 years ago.

I've seen other forum platforms that do this and I find it largely useless - if I want it, I'll look it up. XenForo doesn't do it (has a few stats but nothing particularly useful), IPB does it and I find it just distracts me from getting to do what I need to do.

Having experience in business development, I KNOW this would be useful. It's a matter of knowing what to do with the information. I don't think it's fair to knock it because YOU find it useless when countless others would. However, what is fair is not having the time or desire to code it. Which is fine by me... 

There are two problems here. One is that we need to continue supporting IE8, and the other more important one is that there are quite a few things that are actually tabular data that shouldn't be changed. The various logs, amongst other things.

Maybe I should have said it differently. Table HTML needs to be replaced with div's and lists, and Table CSS should be applied. No tabular loss here. In other words, make use of: display:table, display:table-row, and display:table-cell. Tables are not responsive. Maybe adaptive, but in no way responsive. You cannot hope to have a responsive theme and still support vast tables.

Another thing is, responsive design it is possible for IE8 with the use of respond.js. However, I was merely mentioning it could be done for IE9+ as it is without the JS. It's also possible without even the JS, but would require more work than I care to do. I reckon it would be best to leave this to someone who is more qualified.

I know offering suggestions at this point is really futile, because SMF is so far behind in development that the developers will be busy for quite awhile.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

[kat]

A lot of these things are "Personal opinions" things, though, Xarcell, don't you think?

What's good for some, will be pants, for someone else.

Also, it's often a case of simply preferring something done, in a certain way, simply because you're used to it, innit?

There's no pleasing everyone and, sadly, some people can't be pleased, whatever you do.

[Arantor]

Menu's should expand down, not have a dropdown hover effect.

Are they not expanding down then?

Other than the "security reason", I see no reason why it should have been removed. However, I know bringing this up isn't even really debatable, so no use in discussing it. I was merely mentioning it was preferred.

Other than the security issue, there are significant translation issues and there are issues with other navigation (e.g. the search function in the admin panel that now appears everywhere in the admin panel rather than just the first page)

Saying 10 years might be an exaggeration, but in truth maybe a 7 year old design. I know this because I was designing themes that looked better than this 7 years ago.

It's funny, then, that SMF 1.1.x was considered fresh when it came out... 7 years ago.

I don't think it's fair to knock it because YOU find it useless when countless others would. However, what is fair is not having the time or desire to code it. Which is fine by me...

I don't know anyone who has requested it for SMF other than you.

Maybe I should have said it differently. Table HTML needs to be replaced with div's and lists, and Table CSS should be applied. No tabular loss here. In other words, make use of: display:table, display:table-row, and display:table-cell. Tables are not responsive. Maybe adaptive, but in no way responsive. You cannot hope to have a responsive theme and still support vast tables.

So you want to take tabular data and not use tabular markup for it. How is that semantically correct?

I'm not disputing that some things should become non-tabular in mark-up, but using tabular mark-up for tabular data (like the logs) seems the most appropriate thing, no?

Mind you, I'm personally not a huge fan of responsive. All it means you end up doing is spitting out the same mark-up and doing all the same processing, only to proceed to hide half the data afterwards.

Would it not be better to have a dedicated theme that didn't fetch or process or output that data to start with? You wouldn't just get the usability benefits, but you'd get other performance benefits and so on.

Another thing is, responsive design it is possible for IE8 with the use of respond.js. However, I was merely mentioning it could be done for IE9+ as it is without the JS. It's also possible without even the JS, but would require more work than I care to do. I reckon it would be best to leave this to someone who is more qualified.

You're more qualified than I am when it comes to themes. I'm a 'make it work' kind of guy, not a 'make it pretty' kind of guy.

I know offering suggestions at this point is really futile, because SMF is so far behind in development that the developers will be busy for quite awhile.

And that sort of "encouragement" is also really futile. No-one is denying that we're behind, and we're working hard to try and catch up - but it's not easy when we're already having trouble making the time for it around our other commitments, and anyone who contributes is going to help that along. Sitting on the side just suggesting things is great - it helps us figure out how to improve it, and in what direction.

But in absence of people actually contributing, the dev team has to pick a path and run with it. I'm sorry that we can't build your perfect forum software. But we have to build what we believe is the best base package for people to play with, and that means accepting we're going to upset people. I am well aware that there are people unhappy with the changes I have made in 2.1, but I believe more people will be happy than will be made unhappy with it; to me this represents an improvement. I just have to upset the least number of people.

[Xarcell]

And that sort of "encouragement" is also really futile. No-one is denying that we're behind, and we're working hard to try and catch up - but it's not easy when we're already having trouble making the time for it around our other commitments, and anyone who contributes is going to help that along. Sitting on the side just suggesting things is great - it helps us figure out how to improve it, and in what direction.

But in absence of people actually contributing, the dev team has to pick a path and run with it. I'm sorry that we can't build your perfect forum software. But we have to build what we believe is the best base package for people to play with, and that means accepting we're going to upset people. I am well aware that there are people unhappy with the changes I have made in 2.1, but I believe more people will be happy than will be made unhappy with it; to me this represents an improvement. I just have to upset the least number of people.

I'm sorry if what I said came across as negative, or if it sounded like an insult to anyone on the SMF Dev team. That was not my intentions. I guess what I'm trying to say that it's OK if my suggestions are pushed to the side or taken with a grain of salt. If the Dev team play around with ideas all day long, then how much work actually get's done? I'd much rather SMF get caught up first.

Where I see ideas for improvement, I can't help myself to keep my mouth shut. Call it a flaw, or call it a gift, I don't care.

As far as contributing to code or design, I can't really contribute can I? It's been made quite clear that what I would like to do with SMF, is unwanted and that's ok. I see your reasoning. So where does that leave us?

For the record, I have more HAPPY with the changes than I am UNHAPPY and I'm not saying anyone implied otherwise. I just want to be clear on it. So the first person that says Xarcell is completely unhappy with the changes with 2.1, will get a swift kick in the butt. or I'll mail you a rotten donut.

A lot of these things are "Personal opinions" things, though, Xarcell, don't you think?

Yes they are, including the Dev's.

What's good for some, will be pants, for someone else.

Yep.

Also, it's often a case of simply preferring something done, in a certain way, simply because you're used to it, innit?

Not always. Half the time it is based on logic, statistics, marketing research, and trail & error. If it hasn't been done on a forum before, yet it is suggested, how can it be implied it is a preferred way of doing things?

There's no pleasing everyone and, sadly, some people can't be pleased, whatever you do.

Very true.

[Arantor]

Where I see ideas for improvement, I can't help myself to keep my mouth shut. Call it a flaw, or call it a gift, I don't care.

As far as contributing to code or design, I can't really contribute can I? It's been made quite clear that what I would like to do with SMF, is unwanted and that's ok. I see your reasoning. So where does that leave us?

If it's a legitimate improvement, make it anyway. Because even if I personally don't like the *idea* of it, I might be swayed upon *seeing* it. And even if I don't like it, I'm just one person, and I can be overruled if a lot of people disagree with me. That's the thing... I'm not really here to indulge my ego, I'm here to build SMF - which is for everyone, of which I'm only one user.

Ultimately what it comes down to is if someone wants me to build it, I need to be convinced of the benefit to invest my time in doing it. If someone else builds it, I'm *immediately* more receptive to it because the biggest timesink is not my problem.

For the record, I have more HAPPY with the changes than I am UNHAPPY and I'm not saying anyone implied otherwise. I just want to be clear on it. So the first person that says Xarcell is completely unhappy with the changes with 2.1, will get a swift kick in the butt. or I'll mail you a rotten donut.

That's largely my take on it as well I hear your concerns, but in the scheme of things they were better changes than the alternatives - like the admin panel overhaul, we've had a few complaints and a lot more people happy with it. Some of the comments were actually kind of rude, too.

Not always. Half the time it is based on logic, statistics, marketing research, and trail & error. If it hasn't been done on a forum before, yet it is suggested, how can it be implied it is a preferred way of doing things?

Exactly. This is why I'm always going to listen when someone has done it and can show me, rather than trying to convince me of the hypothetical benefit before I do so.

I'm much happier implementing an alerts system now I've seen it in practice in a number of places, for example.