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Author Topic: Multilingual ...?! Mehrsprachig?! Posible multilingüe? Είναι πολύγλωσσο δυνατόν;  (Read 37077 times)

Offline sangham.net

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Dear Community, developers, professionals,

I am one of the sort of no specific and professional skills, more a idea sharer in on many places.

What about making the forums generally bilingual runnable?

From my small understanding, it must be possible to generate (on wish) a twin post in the different language as a parallel column, so to speak.

The "naive" idea. When you post you are able to chose which language you write (for example it's a german/english board). After you send the post, a automatical twinpost will be generated, which is connected with the original.

...index.php?topic=64.msg201#msg201en (original by sign) and ...index.php?topic=64.msg201#msg201de (generated)
if nothing is chosen, just without language sign.
It would be also imaginable to add more languages in this way. (Also to let the member select which should be shown)

The generated one could be supported by a machine (such as google translate or an independent, or not). This generated topic, can be modified by the poster as well and assigned in (automatical generated, translated by the poster, voluntary translator, approved). So everybody knows how to value the translation.

I guess such a tool would be also very helpful for general language developments of the software it self and would have great process opportunities for translation projects in a multitasking manner. Maybe its also helpful to break this or that language barrier.

As told before, I am not very much into the whole stuff only some general understandings.

Thanks a lot for the interest and eventually hints, if such already exists. Not to speak if some genius developer would start such a project and make it real.



« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 09:28:25 PM by Johann B »

kat

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2013, 08:58:46 AM »
Wow... I think this would need a LOT of work, to achieve, if it's even possible.

It would also have to rely on what I think of as "Machine translations" and HUGE dictionaries.

The result, too, would be... er... crap, in many situations, I believe.

As an illustration, have a look at this:

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=fr&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.simplemachines.org%2Fcommunity%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D497834.0%3Btopicseen

The French is... er... "dubious", shall we say?

Handy little add-on for Opera, though, if you're interested.

https://addons.opera.com/en-gb/extensions/details/in-place-translator

It's pretty good. I suspect other browsers will have something similar.

MrPhil

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 09:23:03 AM »
Having the ability to machine translate posts into your desired language is requested from time to time. There might even be a mod for it somewhere. As the Grey Kitty points out, such translations tend to be rather rough. Certainly it would not be rocket science to store the language in use (say, 'en') when the post was written (or even let the translator take its best guess at the source), and invoke Google Translate on the fly when the displayed forum is, say, 'fr'. Well, you'd have French words, anyway... To put them side-by-side would take a new theme, but could be done. To do it "gloss" style (align paragraphs or even sentences) could even be done. If someone wants to try this and offer it as a theme/mod, no one is going to stand in their way. However, the demand for such a thing is probably quite limited (especially given the quality of the translation), so I don't anticipate a stampede for the entrances, nor do I see this being a built-in feature.

kat

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2013, 09:27:56 AM »
I still have trouble with English...

...and I'm English! :)

Online Kindred

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 09:49:09 AM »
yup...   there's a reason that we don't allow our translation teams to use google translate.


(And just to give a shout out - our translation teams and our native language support group are some of the best I have come across - well done guys and gals)

BTW: the google translate API is now a paid service...
https://developers.google.com/translate/
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MrPhil

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 09:52:57 AM »
What did Mark Twain say about trying to learn German (in The Awful German Language)? He suggested that it be radically reformed, and "unreformed, the language be laid to rest among the dead, as only the dead have time to learn it" [from memory, may not be exact quote]. I lent a copy to my German teacher, and she said she had never laughed so hard.

I notice that a lot (not "alot") of native English speakers have a great deal of trouble with their native tongue! It is one of the most difficult languages, in the sense that there seem to be more irregularities to memorize than there are adherents to the rules!

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 09:54:24 AM »
German was the easiest language that I ever learned! English is, essentially a germanic derivative.
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Offline Arantor

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 10:34:26 AM »
Eh, this really isn't needed. Let us, for a moment, put aside the issues connected with machine translation and its inherent inaccuracy.

Some browsers already offer a 'Translate to English' right click menu option (Chrome does, at least, but I wouldn't be surprised if other languages do)

On top of that, there are already mods for doing such translations should the user want to install them.
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Offline sangham.net

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 11:31:57 AM »
Thanks a lot for all your replays, hints and oppinions!

I am aware of all this machines, but actually I do not really appreciate them, because they simply increase the laziness to learn if we are honest. Second is, that they are more confusing if the participator of a bilingual forum use them. You will not know where you are, especially if you use the forum much for translation works. I had this tool but I uninstalled it quickly. It does not force leaning and mindfulness.

The idea of integration of machines is merely secondary but maybe helpful for the general idea.

It's issue next to translation work is, like if you meet people of different languages. Even you are not able to communicate direct your self, it is possible to make some voluntary work and translate the posts of others and so the stream can go on, without a disturb.

As told, its lesser to make it more consumable but to make communication more accessible as well as to learn with it.

Maybe a generally differently viewpoint.

Not professionals speak always easy, but so far I had seen, that the whole database has a good and simply structure and this let me believe that it could be not that much work, if one latches on the right level.

This mod would be also good for a separate moderation stream for example and not only useful for different languages. If you would moderate a forum, without getting direct into the discussion for example.

Just ideas... Thank you very much for interest and solicitousness.



(I had start to learn English for communication about 2,5 years ago and it was that forums made me to do that and forced me to learn. Still very bad, but much better than at the start. )


 


MrPhil

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2013, 11:33:59 AM »
German was the easiest language that I ever learned!
Spelled exactly as it sounds, nouns capitalized, regular syntax rules, small vocabulary (compared to English, anyway).

Quote
English is, essentially a germanic derivative.
And that's where the similarity ends. Anglo-Saxon may be the base, but add in a lot of Scandinavian influences (courtesy of the Vikings) and a loss of gender and inflected endings, mix in a huge amount of Latin via French (William the Conqueror), let simmer for a few centuries and a Bard or two, import and/or make up tens of thousands of words (from North American aboriginal canoe to Urdu khaki), and you end up with the most mongrelized yet exquisitely expressive language in the world, with the largest vocabulary. Also, probably the most difficult to get right.

Offline sangham.net

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2013, 11:45:17 AM »
Yes Mr.Phil, 100% German is a indo germanic language and the root languages are very structured (similar to pali, Sanskrit and the most SEA-languages). English has many mannerism also on a raw level, not to speak about the fine and the old usage is already lost I guess (Latin is also very exact). The grammar of English is maybe easier as other languages, but also just on a raw level, I guess.


Offline Irisado

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2013, 12:01:32 PM »
Es una idea interesante.....

Oh wait, which language am I supposed to be replying in again :D?

While I think that the idea is possibly okay in theory, in practice, I'm not a fan.  For a start is very problematic to get it right from a translation perspective, but second, the screen is going to be awfully compressed with two versions (or more) of the same thread in different languages side by side.  (That's what I understood you to be suggesting).

I think that the translators here have enough work to be going on with for the moment too without adding something like this to the possible list of future features.
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Offline sangham.net

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 12:38:33 PM »
Maybe it would be a support for the translators. Thanks for your thought, Irisado!

And yes, the place is the only thing I would worry about, but I guess it would be possible to make it visible or not (so not a constant permanent present column, which one you prefer and translators and correctors can play angles and devas aside.)

Offline sangham.net

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2013, 12:58:25 PM »
Just a quick patchwork



As the native poster you could chose which language you post. And your stream will be the "big one"

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2013, 01:02:41 PM »
and how the hell do you expect that second language translation to be fulfilled if not by a machine translator?
Do you actually expect a live person to review or translate every post in English into another language? On a forum that gets 10,000 posts a day?

Also, what if my forum supports 15 languages?
What if I am not viewing on a widescreen monitor? What if I am viewing on a 4" phone? That would be completely unreadbale.
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Offline sangham.net

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2013, 01:21:18 PM »
Hi Kindred! If it is a community with people who are working together on a project, there should be no problem. If it is just a consuming community, the normal google translaters and so on will fit. As maybe not said, it is not meant as a tool for fun boards or boards where is no interest in languages.


You could chose the languages you work on, that should be possible. The twin post just have extensions. No need to be interested in them. But for translation work, for example a wonderful possibility, even within a community of 50 languages. You could collapse or collapse a second or no other as your own stream.

Yes, why not. I do that, but it's a little hard if you just do it in one column and you need to be on side all the time, while here you could make things on and on, or not.


I don't think that such forums have much participators who are interested in such, but why not. No need to make separate language sub forums and much lesser work. (if more languages are wished!)


I guess there is enough place for two columns, I have no widescreen either.  And as thought, collapse would be a way to do not disturb them who are not interested in such.

Thanks for your thought and involvement!

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2013, 02:04:39 PM »
Sorry, but no.   You have seriously underestimated the EFFORT this would take.

Take our forum here for example. We support more than 20 languages.
We have native language moderators who provide support int their native language.
If they had to waste time translating questions from english to their language and form their language back to english, they would never get any real support donw in their own language

What you ask is just not reasonable for a forum of any size at all.

And no... even with a wide screen, I keep the window to full-screen. If you reduceds that, even by a third to account for the other language window, it would quickly become difficult the read. Viewing it on my phone would be completely unusable
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Offline Suki

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2013, 02:11:55 PM »
Putting aside the manpower issue, there is still the code issue, what you want requires a good amount of code changes (code changes that will interfere and annoy other users who do not wish to use this feature) and build entire UIs to handle the tools to be used by translators, not to mention your database size will be increased  by X where X is the number of languages you want to offer support.

Your idea might suit your site, sadly, an idea suiting your site isn't enough to qualify for a feature request, try in the mod request board instead.
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Offline Ricky.

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2013, 02:22:14 PM »
As the Miss said, idea may sound good but its not something that is expected be used by a lot. Presentation is not any issue, one can use javascript based tabs (just an idea) and lots of other way to show. However, if you get someone to do that for you , you may contribute it to community as mod.

Offline sangham.net

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Re: Bilingual, maybe a strange idea, maybe possible already
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2013, 03:13:45 PM »
Sorry, but no.   You have seriously underestimated the EFFORT this would take.

Take our forum here for example. We support more than 20 languages.
We have native language moderators who provide support int their native language.
If they had to waste time translating questions from english to their language and form their language back to english, they would never get any real support donw in their own language

What you ask is just not reasonable for a forum of any size at all.

And no... even with a wide screen, I keep the window to full-screen. If you reduced that, even by a third to account for the other language window, it would quickly become difficult the read. Viewing it on my phone would be completely unusable
Dear Kindred, as said, it does not make sense for a forum where is no wish to interact with people of different languages. In regard of the moderators, they would work side by side and not just in their borders.
I am aware of a different issue, that might be not so conscious. English native persons are not that much interested in such things, as others usually mostly speak a little English, but thought of Chinese language increase that could be a urgent issue soon.
Not to speak that I think that there is no forum software which serves with such a tool.

Quote
Viewing it on my phone would be completely unusable
How is it now when you communicate in two languages?
Maybe it's more an issue of seeing no need in more languages at the same time?
But I fully understand your argumentation.



Putting aside the manpower issue, there is still the code issue, what you want requires a good amount of code changes (code changes that will interfere and annoy other users who do not wish to use this feature) and build entire UIs to handle the tools to be used by translators, not to mention your database size will be increased  by X where X is the number of languages you want to offer support.

Your idea might suit your site, sadly, an idea suiting your site isn't enough to qualify for a feature request, try in the mod request board instead.
Dear Suki,

of course I have no detail understanding of such issues. But from my understanding it would be somehow a side tool and does not need to go into the general structure. I guess one even would not need to be deeper integrated in the main database, but could have as side store. (a naive thought)

Quote
not to mention your database size will be increased  by X where X is the number of languages you want to offer support
Yes of course, but thought of having same topics and some problems and some issues in many languages in sub forums on a "multilingual" (actually just subforums) forum, I guess at the end it will be smaller if such a use is possible. People from different languages would work closer with each others. Nobody here has an idea of what's going on in the Spanish forum, maybe 3 Topics of the same issue at the same time and nobody would merge them.



As the Miss said, idea may sound good but its not something that is expected be used by a lot. Presentation is not any issue, one can use javascript based tabs (just an idea) and lots of other way to show. However, if you get someone to do that for you , you may contribute it to community as mod.
I understand that and I mentioned it in the OP already. I know that there is work behind, much work. I would do that, but to be honest, I do not even know what javascript is and I guess I am a little to old now to step into this field while others are professional and familiar with it.

Just ideas, maybe useful. Manageable is all, just needs the desire to do it and sometimes some helping hands. As it seems is the community here famous for it.