Some updates on SMF 2.1

[bloc]

The new default looks nothing like SMF. It's up to themers to make themes not looking like SMF, not the team itself.
Removing all SMF icons and images, is IMO not the way to go. I also don't understand why this is done. You have the cus. team to make the original icons more modern, instead of just using standard web site icons.

Uhm, an inaccurate observation since NDT of 2.1 have plenty of nods to the previous NDT. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing, question is rather if a theme that really did look completely different, would be accepted or not.

As for icons..the web leans towards less of the small works-of-art glyphs and more into less detailed, but bigger symbols + more texts. Its a shift in perceived "coolness" lol and of course the big guys set the tone there. Where would we be without Apple to give us all that luscious design work?

[emanuele]

As for objections to changes..where do you draw the line? If a senior member for the team says he don't like the user posts, does that count as it having to be changed? What if Irisado here said it, should her opinion be taken into account? Should the designer have FULL freedom? or should it be done the google way, one tiny step at a time, with 5 variations of everything..

From me: 80/85% complete freedom to the designer, 10/15% of space for other needs (translation, usability (even though Ant is much better than me on that one ) and some kind of standardization (i.e. if the designer creates a new template for a single page that can be created using another template...well... )), 5% for comments from others.
But of course I know nothing about design and I'm rather adaptable, so I don't care too much about the interface.

Of course, in all that percentages there is a parallel value, but somehow more important: 100% of freedom to those who are willing to work on it.

I think not. The discussion itself have taken a minor seat to all the extra info, to make people participate more. But do they participate more if they just fill out lots of info about themselves? Isn't the DISCUSS part the most important? Little thought have been given to that (AFAIK): how to make people engage more without building a "pseudo" home for them in offering all kinds of personal info areas.

So true.
Space for all the users' garbage, space for ugly signatures (and complex mechanisms to limit those ugly signatures), space for sidebars everywhere (left, right, top, bottom), and the message becomes just an annoying thing that can be ignored...

Uhm, an inaccurate observation since NDT of 2.1 have plenty of nods to the previous NDT. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing, question is rather if a theme that really did look completely different, would be accepted or not.

Of course it would not be accepted because it is "different" (and it doesn't come from Cupertino ).
Well, I'm guilty here because I didn't like so much "Penguin" and that's one of the reasons I didn't work on it (apart from the fact I'm terribly dumb in theming lol).

[maxg]

@Bloc,

I agree not just because it's Bloc and know him, he knows that If don't like something, I say so and disagree.... but as I surf the web, I'm finding more and more sites trimming down the graphics and using more HTML5 and CSS friendly stuff, and giving way for more and better content. as I have been mentioning on every site I visit. I have myself been replacing image with CSS ( experimenting for many years now) just because I like doing it. Take for example Utube and Y@hoo ...and for the News site, whos to say what is news now days? more content and less clutter, fast and smooth with attention to their subject matter or content!

Like I said many time it may look great. but can you find what you came here for + content ( information, answers ) not more confusion!

If your site is about SMF and Mod and Themes Then great, bloat sites may be your answer, but if you site if information that will hopefully be found by someone that needs or is interested in learn from it, then these gadgets and flash and jquery and image will not do the trick


Love the art work, but bottom line is 4 me, reliability and content and Pro like intro to you front door!

And these will also help your site to be found and passed on to others!

regards,
Maxx

[InfoStrides]

Thanks for the great job.

[Akyhne]

The SMF 2.1 theme doesn't work, cause there's nothing left of SMF. The previous themes, Yabb, Core, Babylon etc. all had something in common with each other. It was mainly the icons which told you, you were still in a SMF forum, and that's why it's a shame that they didn't at least keep some of those.
Another view of mine is that if they really have to change that much from the past theme, then the past theme wasn't done properly enough.

I really don't mind the new theme. Most of it, is ok. But it's just not SMF. I just feel like I've gone somewhere else when I visit my newly installed SMF 2.1.

[emanuele]

So now SMF it's all about its icons...heck I thought it was the code and the community...I was so wrong...well, it's not too late to revert everything (including features and theme, what matters are the icons) back to 1.0 default.
[/sarcasm]

[maxg]

The theme is good!!!
let's not go backward, I'm getting way too old for that! and the old cell phone was so heavy, but had nice features for it's day!

The SMF system is looking good and moving, let's be happy!!

I tested some older 2.02 SMF themes and they work with little to be done>> I have managed to take the theme apart and started customizing things, no real problems thus far, same with the 2,02 SMF default them, most issues are only looks ( cosmetic ) admin related stuff I mentioned before.

All the little stuff I do not like I can change!

With both the Version beta 2.02 and 2.1 Alpha can be changed to look like the older SMF in many ways and also changed to look more WP or Blog like, this is being worked on by a few already. I have also discovered some real basic changes that made a world of difference in the looks and feel, (still hard at this part)... Like I and many have said, lets leave that to the Theme designers to spend time on, and present this stuff later on.

What concerns me more is the when, and what it takes to get to the Beta.

Hate to see this get stuck on options of the theme (so far minor stuff)

Got to move with the Web , before it leaves us behind!

regards,
Maxx

[Angelina Belle]

Change can be difficult. And, if you have built your forum's identity around the CURVE theme, you are bound to be a little shocked by the change.
I do not imagine that the developers here will get stuck on options of the theme.

The SMF team knows that it is only one small part of the SMF community. Though the team does its best to understand the needs of the entire community and deliver improvements and even excitement with each new major version of SMF, it cannot possibly satisfy every need of every community member.  Just as the team members work on what we love, we encourage you all to work on what you love.

Do you love the CURVE theme? Read through the new Penguin templates to learn about differences from SMF 2.0.2. Create a new CURVE theme compatable with SMF 2.1.  You may need to make a few tweaks as SMF 2.1 progresses out of alpha, through beta, through the RC stage, and into its final release.  But you will be rewarded with an SMF 2.1 with all the promised features, while still retaining the CURVE look you love.

Go ahead.  Be the first to submit a 2.1-compatable CURVE theme to the theme site. It is free/libre software, after all.  Just follow the rules of the BSD License and write good code.  You'll have exactly what you want, and many fellow community members will thank you.  What -- are you afraid you are not the only one with this brilliant idea? Just start a topic on the themes and graphics board to get together with several like-minded individuals.  Many hands make light work.

Enjoy!

[Akyhne]

It is nothing about that I don't like changes. I don't particular like Curve and I don't particular like any of the older SMF themes. Why do you think I make new themes that are not like the Default?
To me, Curve was easy to make new themes from, I've never complained. That doesn't mean that I wanted to keep it. Releasing a new SMF version without creating a new and very different "state-of-the-art" theme, would to be be a step backwards.

But there needs to be some kind of recognition from one SMF standard theme to another and there isn't in the new theme. The older SMF themes had the icons in common. Icons were the oly thing telling you that you used SMF.
A new theme could have been Curve with very different icons.
I tried to talk for newer, enhanced icons before releasing SMF2. Just using the old ones as they were, was to me dull. I even made some suggestions to new icons when I was in the team.

Now the team finally made something new. But they changed to much in one step. There's no recognition anymore. That's what I'm "complaining" about!

And no, I'm not going to make suggestions to changes. Why should I?!

[emanuele]

What concerns me more is the when, and what it takes to get to the Beta.

ATM what is highly missing is theme cleanup and bug fixing.
Hopefully you'll see a post about that in the close future.

The older SMF themes had the icons in common. Icons were the oly thing telling you that you used SMF.

Well, I'm not going to argue any more. To me tradition is BS.

Now the team finally made something new. But they changed to much in one step. There's no recognition anymore. That's what I'm "complaining" about!

TBH, I think that the new theme is much similar to Curve than Curve to Core, irrespective of the icons.
And the new icons, of course, fit much better than the previous ones (even only because they are png with proper transparencies rather than gif with fake-like transparency).
But as I said, I'm not going to waste more time arguing.

And no, I'm not going to make suggestions to changes. Why should I?!

Yes, feel free to not make suggestions, nobody is forcing anyone to make any suggestion. But, please, feel free to stop complaining too, nobody needs only complains.

And on a general note: if previous developers were kind enough to listen to everybody and try to mediate, I'm not. Unless there is a good technical reason and someone willing to work on it.
And of course "I don't like it" is not a technical reason.
There are things I don't like me too in the new theme, but I keep them for myself and I'll hack it when the time to upgrade will come.

[Akyhne]

I'm not complaining FFS!
I write my opinion, U guys misunderstand me and I explain!

Ok, the more you misunderstand me and the more I need to explain, the more it looks like I'm complaining.
Read WHAT I write FFS and stop interpret what you THINK I write!

It's plain, it's simple and if you post about new changes in a forum about a new version, you will get opinions, positive as negative. Live with it! That's what FORUM software is about!

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages

Note the word "Discussion"!!!

[Angelina Belle]

It is normal for people to like some changes and dislike others. These are opinions.

Because it is hard to write really well, and because many users are also writing in their second language, it is easy for misunderstandings to happen.

I hope you both can see that the statement

But there needs to be some kind of recognition from one SMF standard theme to another and there isn't in the new theme.

could be taken in more than one way.

To emanuele, it seemed like an order or requirement ("there needs to be"), whereas Akhyne says it is only his opinion, with no expectation that the SMF team really NEEDS to do it that way.

I hope you can agree this just is a little misunderstanding, and agree to amicably disagree about the new theme.

Of course, Akhyne is free to make a new theme which suits his own ideas of the perfect default theme for SMF 2.1.  And we know that I bet other users will like it, also.  We all know that Akhyne's themes (including ports of old SMF and YaBB default themes) are very popular. And the SMF developers team is free to continue with the new penguin theme.

It's a Free Software world. Work on the part you love.

[bloc]

That icons are the consistent thing is not accurate either, Akyhne. I made the Core design, and I made the Curve design, I know the icons changed cuz I changed some of them lol. I have always been keen to replace them, but it never got off to all of them..and my skills in icon area is very limited.

But I like NDT's are very different from major version to another - thats why I even tumbled with Curv(y)e drafts when Core was already established (which is a pretty "square" theme) - I wanted to it to be quite different, and the only question was if the team liked it enough. They did. The thing in common was rather the (approx.) blue hues, and of course not-so-different inner templates: the postbit, display area and board/messageindex. Those didn't change that much, although we did get in a few major changes there as well..not to mention the work Antech did on many details the last 2 years. I also continued the "3d" look, the Curve top bit is a bevel of sorts, while the menus in Core are bevellled as well.

Penguin is in a similar state. I wish it could be more different..but alas, its a good compromise, and it can still be tweaked further.

This reminds me back to when I made Core theme, when Babylon theme was major stuff and both Unknown, Compuart and Grudge were around. They were very "there" in all things development, but I remember I talked with Compu in private about making a new NDT, which became Core later - I asked how i should do it, suggest some changes, perhaps get more people..or should I just post the design and let it be? He replied with a smilile "just post it and state its the new NDT". Lol, I did and the rest is history. Man, it was more trust then, because when Curve came around, I did same thing..but it took quite a few longer to go forward, and many had objections. But I think there's a point in trusting someone to give all their heart to something, trust it will be spectacular and not act like you could do it better anytime..(..)

Thats why i never(ad if I have , boy, I landed right back on my backside lol) suggested to know better than devs when it comes to the inner workings on SMF, even to mods although i painstakingly stumbled through the TinyPortal mod. But when it comes to design, to themeing..well, I had a lot more drive in the start, not because of being young in the game, but because of the trust and optimism that were there. Today I am not sure, but its unfair in any regard, since there are lot of new team members now, many of whom I don't know and don't know me.

Boy, this became a lot of "me"..it wasn't so of course, just wanted to get a point across(and do the memory lane thing )

[Angelina Belle]

well, I had a lot more drive in the start, not because of being young in the game, but because of the trust and optimism that were there.

+1

[Irisado]

Which is why a bland, no-frills theme is a good solution.

But...then you loose all uniqueness with the software, as its not recognized anymore as "ah, THAT forum script" purely on the looks.

Well, you could argue not that displaying post count, member status, and personal text that the software is unique, because, as far as I know, such features haven't been removed from the default theme of other commonly used forum software  .  That said, this is not my reversing my position, because my view is that those things are default features of any forum software, and if people don't like them, then a mod can be made to remove them.

That's what really puzzles me about the change.  If you (impersonal usage) want to make profile information only available via mods, that's okay by me, as then forum admins can add what they see fit regarding all the different personal profile options, but why remove those three default features from the actual post?  I just don't understand how they can be considered as something which shouldn't be a default.

As for objections to changes..where do you draw the line? If a senior member for the team says he don't like the user posts, does that count as it having to be changed? What if Irisado here said it, should her opinion be taken into account? Should the designer have FULL freedom? or should it be done the google way, one tiny step at a time, with 5 variations of everything..

I empathise with this problem, and I also am under no illusions whatsoever regarding the points that I make here.  I'm not an admin, I don't have to do all the hard work of upgrading forum software, and all this sort of thing, I just moderate, and before that I was, and still am, a regular user who just really likes SMF software.  I don't expect my views to carry much weight, but I just like to make what I hope are constructive comments about the direction the software is taking, mainly to see if I'm in a complete minority, or whether anyone else shares my concerns.

I think not. The discussion itself have taken a minor seat to all the extra info, to make people participate more. But do they participate more if they just fill out lots of info about themselves? Isn't the DISCUSS part the most important? Little thought have been given to that (AFAIK): how to make people engage more without building a "pseudo" home for them in offering all kinds of personal info areas.

Personally, I've found through looking through user profiles on the forum where I moderate that it tends to be those who post most often, and who are most active, who fill out the most information on their profile.  This is, however, purely anecdotal, so I would hesitate to even suggest that it's correlation, let alone causation, but I just thought that I'd mention it as food for thought.

As I said above though, I'd have no problem with the personal profile sections being minimised, and more sections available via mods.

The SMF team knows that it is only one small part of the SMF community. Though the team does its best to understand the needs of the entire community and deliver improvements and even excitement with each new major version of SMF, it cannot possibly satisfy every need of every community member.  Just as the team members work on what we love, we encourage you all to work on what you love.

It's worth pointing out that I do fully agree with this, and I'm sure that those who are skilled at coding, creating mods et al will find ways to satisfy most people.

The only caveat that I want to add is that if, like me, you're just a user of SMF software, you are at the mercy of the default theme more than if you are in charge of a particular forum, and are skilled enough to install the mods that you want correctly (or make them yourself).  I guess the solution is I'll just have to prod Kindred in the nicest possible way .

Finally, I think that the fact that it's little details that seem to have provoked the most discussion somewhat suggest that SMF, as a whole, is very solid, and moving in the right direction, so I see that as being positive .

[Hj Ahmad Rasyid Hj Ismail]

I like all these sayings.

To me tradition is BS.

Yes, feel free to not make suggestions, nobody is forcing anyone to make any suggestion. But, please, feel free to stop complaining too, nobody needs only complains.

There are things I don't like me too in the new theme, but I keep them for myself and I'll hack it when the time to upgrade will come.

It is normal for people to like some changes and dislike others. These are opinions.

Because it is hard to write really well, and because many users are also writing in their second language, it is easy for misunderstandings to happen.

I hope you can agree this just is a little misunderstanding, and agree to amicably disagree about the new theme.

It's a Free Software world. Work on the part you love.

And +10 for Bloc from me personally.

As I said above though, I'd have no problem with the personal profile sections being minimised, and more sections available via mods.

As for Irisado, though I personally prefer it to be very minimized, I also believe that it is better to give user option whether personal profile information (including signature) is to be displayed in details in post page, or only partially (important information only), or very minimized. Mod shall only be required to improve this option if needed but this option should IMHO be shipped with SMF 2.1.

Again, I wish the team, good luck and all the best.

[emanuele]

I'm not complaining FFS!
I write my opinion, U guys misunderstand me and I explain!

If it is just a misunderstanding, then please apologise me.

[Akyhne]

np

[SoLoGHoST]

1 thing I'm noticing in SMF 2.1 Alpha, is the <!DOCTYPE html> still contains the DTD reference.  I believe this should be changed, in index.template.php, to just <!DOCTYPE html>, so that it places the browser in Standards Mode and still supports HTML5 without any validation errors!  HTML5 is not based on SGML, and therefore does not require a reference to a DTD.  In any case, it would make the most sense to use the HTML 5 DOCTYPE declaration instead of HTML 4 DOCTYPE that is being used still in SMF 2.1.  This helps prevent (X)HTML 5 Validation errors.

Just a thought...  I, honestly, don't know if I will have time to contribute to 2.1 at all, but just wanted to get this bit out there...

[GraphicJunki]

Looking forward to installing this one Thanks guys