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Author Topic: Licensing Questions (Was: Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON)  (Read 25997 times)

Offline therebel

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Hi,

I read this post : http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php
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The point can be made that Simple Machines software isn't Open Source as described by the OSI

Smf becomes open source?

Greetings
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 06:10:07 PM by rickC »

Offline Fustrate

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 03:38:53 AM »
If you actually read all of that page, it clearly states why SMF is not 'open source' as defined by OSI. They then go on to describe what their license means, and why it's done that way.
 
Imagine if you made a famous painting. Someone else comes along and changes the hair color of one of the people in your art piece, and tries to sell it as their own. Sooner or later there are hundreds of *slightly* different versions of your painting out there, and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
That's why SMF is licensed the way it is.
Steven Hoffman
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Offline therebel

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 04:00:44 AM »
If you actually read all of that page, it clearly states why SMF is not 'open source' as defined by OSI. They then go on to describe what their license means, and why it's done that way.
 
Imagine if you made a famous painting. Someone else comes along and changes the hair color of one of the people in your art piece, and tries to sell it as their own. Sooner or later there are hundreds of *slightly* different versions of your painting out there, and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
That's why SMF is licensed the way it is.

Hello,
Joomla is open source and there are not hundreds of copies.
Ubuntu is open source and there are not hundreds of copies. It is necessary to stop being naïve.

If smf is not open source, i don't understand his presence to Portland in an open source convention, it is little as this Microsoft presented Windows vista in an open source convention ......

I repeat my question, smf goes you it to become open source?

Greetings

Offline Enc0der

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 04:25:44 AM »
If you don't like SMF's license you are not forced to use it.
Please go away.

Offline Fustrate

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 04:50:56 AM »
Can you not see the source code of SMF? Can you not go change every text string to "RING RING RING RING RING RING RING, BANANAPHOOOOONE!!!" in every language file? Can you not change Admin.php, Subs-Admin.php and Security.php to let anyone you want into your admin panel? That's what open source is all about. You can change anything you want about it.
 
Just don't go remove all of the security and sell it as SMF 3.0.
 
Is it really that hard to understand? They allow you so much freedom to do what you want to, yet you complain about something that really doesn't matter to anyone unless they want to cause trouble?
 
So let's just be happy that we have SMF, it's free, and (at least in my liberal book) it's open source.
Steven Hoffman
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Offline metallica48423

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2008, 04:52:55 AM »
Please lets not turn this into a personal attack on either side. 

This thread is not for discussion on our licensing.  I reccommend SMF Feedback and Discussion for general discussion.

enc0der: appreciate the support, just please don't step over the line :)
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Offline Fustrate

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 05:16:50 AM »
Are bananaphone references still allowed in this thread? :(
 
I apologize if I came off rude, by the way. 1:50 AM and I haven't slept well in the past 9 months (you don't want to see why ;) or maybe you do! Google "pyoderma gangrenosum", not for the faint of heart)
Steven Hoffman
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Offline therebel

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 05:37:31 AM »
Can you not see the source code of SMF? Can you not go change every text string to "RING RING RING RING RING RING RING, BANANAPHOOOOONE!!!" in every language file? Can you not change Admin.php, Subs-Admin.php and Security.php to let anyone you want into your admin panel? That's what open source is all about. You can change anything you want about it.
 
Just don't go remove all of the security and sell it as SMF 3.0.
 
Is it really that hard to understand? They allow you so much freedom to do what you want to, yet you complain about something that really doesn't matter to anyone unless they want to cause trouble?
 
So let's just be happy that we have SMF, it's free, and (at least in my liberal book) it's open source.

Very interesting.

Definition Open source (source: hxxp:www.opensource.org/ [nonactive]) : Open source is a development method for software that harnesses the power of distributed peer review and transparency of process. The promise of open source is better quality, higher reliability, more flexibility, lower cost, and an end to predatory vendor lock-in.

The Open Source Initiative (OSI) is a non-profit corporation formed to educate about and advocate for the benefits of open source and to build bridges among different constituencies in the open-source community.

One of our most important activities is as a standards body, maintaining the Open Source Definition for the good of the community. The Open Source Initiative Approved License trademark and program creates a nexus of trust around which developers, users, corporations and governments can organize open-source cooperation.

And
Quote
Just don't go remove all of the security and sell it as SMF 3.0.
Not exactly http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php
Quote
You can modify the source code, distribute instructions to modify it, you can view the code and suggest improvements to it.

SMF it's free but not open source, and
Quote
suggest improvements to it.
Is not still true because the team banished from the members when they post corrections. That is why I am amazed to see smf has an open source convention and for what I allow to ask if smf is going to pass open source. I do not question the license smf.

Greetings
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 05:42:38 AM by therebel »

Offline metallica48423

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 05:48:13 AM »
Quote
Is not still true because the team banished from the members when they post corrections

I'm not quite sure what makes you think that.  Theres several members who post bug/feature reports/requests, and i don't recall anyone being 'banished' for sharing their opinion. 

But this topic really isn't the place for that discussion.  I'd like to keep this topic on topic. If you'd be willing, please start a topic regarding your concerns in SMF Feedback and Discussion

Justin O'Leary
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Offline HecKel

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2008, 05:51:37 AM »
The discussion is really interesting, I suggest one split to these messages and continue in other place. I really am interested on this "parallel" discussion :P
SMF 7 is where it gets good. That has time travel. You can go back and post before the guy who flamed you. :P

Offline metallica48423

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2008, 05:55:04 AM »
Thats a good idea.  Unfortunately I can't split in this board.  I'll have someone split it
Justin O'Leary
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Offline therebel

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2008, 07:41:09 AM »
A passage in the open source for smf is planned?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 07:46:56 AM by therebel »

Offline Enc0der

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 08:26:05 AM »
yet you complain about something that really doesn't matter to anyone unless they want to cause trouble

I'm pretty sure this is the issue here, btw.
 :)

Offline HoTmetal

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 08:37:22 AM »
Wow this topic went in a direction I didn't expect. I think many people misunderstand SMF's license and the reasoning behind it. Its true, Open Source requires redistribution, and SMF's license allows for redistribution, but requires written permission first. Our primary reason is consistency, and security. You really can't compare SMF to Ubuntu. One is an Operating System and not very portable (unless its on a live CD) the other is a web application.

I wouldn't even go as far to compare SMF to Joomla, but since it was the example brought up and its a web application I'll run with it. Again all we require for distribution is keep the SMF package current(update within one week), keep the footer in place, and keep the initial package unmodified. There are many company's right now with written permission. Look as SMF's security history compared other forum software, I'd love to think we have the best Dev team on the net (& I feel we do) but a big part of keeping your forums safe is keeping them current. There are many hosts out there that have these 2 click install scripts, installing old versions of websoftware. I see people here all the time because some host still has YabbSE as a free install and it hasn't been supported in how long? We feel this is a progressive way of looking at software and in fact I'll go on record to say we've been asked numerous times by other company's for permission to use our license.

As for an OSI License, I would love to talk about that, but as metallica has said, we should split the topic & keep this one on task.

Offline metallica48423

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 09:07:11 AM »
I agree with Rick. 

For the record, I didn't mean to sound as if its not up for discussion.  I think theres plenty of good discussion to be had on that, however, this isn't the place for it.
Justin O'Leary
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Offline HecKel

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2008, 10:11:56 AM »
Now about the OTHER offtopic :P (it is double post to help when you split the topic :P )

Seeing SMF as a single software, their license are very good and I cannot complain, but when we see SMF as a web application that CAN be connected to other applications their license starts to be a problem..., I remember that you stopped support Joomla's bridge and I know that GeSHi was removed from MODs area. Looking for my own problems, I didn't care about Joomla, I never used and I don't pretend to use, but GeSHi is a PROBLEM in my community (we are a programming community...).

I don't know anything about licenses but in my opinion the actual license that SMF use restricts a little bit the 3rd party development, and I don't think that is a good path to follow...
SMF 7 is where it gets good. That has time travel. You can go back and post before the guy who flamed you. :P

Offline 青山 素子

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Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2008, 10:28:11 AM »
Topic has been split.


I remember that you stopped support Joomla's bridge and I know that GeSHi was removed from MODs area. Looking for my own problems, I didn't care about Joomla, I never used and I don't pretend to use, but GeSHi is a PROBLEM in my community (we are a programming community...).

This isn't really the right area, but I'd like to address this for the other readers. The Joomla! support was stopped because that project specifically stated that no module can be anything other than licensed under the GPL or a GPL compatible license. The bridge was not one of these things, and we couldn't reconcile their license stance. We didn't want to be doing something that was against their view of the license, so we stopped development of the bridge. Anyone else is free to make their own bridge, we aren't stopping them. In fact, JoomlaHacks was supporting a bridge until recently.

As for the GeSHi plugin, the last version on the site was corrupted and wouldn't install, and the creator of the modification decided to drop development. You are welcome to write your own version if you like.


I don't know anything about licenses but in my opinion the actual license that SMF use restricts a little bit the 3rd party development, and I don't think that is a good path to follow...

You say you don't know anything about licenses but then go on to criticize the SMF license? Also, our license doesn't restrict 3rd party development. All it says is that you can't redistribute SMF in any manner. It says nothing about your own code. You are free to develop themes and mods and do whatever you wish for them. Likewise for bridges with other software.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 10:32:25 AM by Motoko-chan »
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Offline HecKel

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Re: Licensing Issues (Was: Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON)
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2008, 10:56:03 AM »
I think you mistunderstand me, it wasn't a critic since I don't know anything about license but was just a simple comment through what I read above.

Thus I had noticed, SMF license is incompatible with GPL license, so if I want to create some thing that will integrate SMF and other software I have to guarantee that I wont have any leak on license's compatibility.

But where is the problem? In SMF license? In other software license? In my opinion is not any problem BUT could create issues whom want to create something under some license.

I really had some problem about GeSHi, but if you say that I can create my own MOD without any problem I'll really try to do it since I'll do it for my community so I'll upload to SMF as well ;)

And just to clarify and finish my message (in my AWFUL English :P), the critic was to the licenses itself and not to SMF. When I had the problem with GeSHi my other forum's moderators said that the problem was GPL license and not SMF license, SMF license don't restrict the other connected softwares but GPL does.
SMF 7 is where it gets good. That has time travel. You can go back and post before the guy who flamed you. :P

Offline SA™

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Re: Licensing Issues (Was: Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON)
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2008, 11:07:04 AM »
whats GeSHi plugin?

http://samods.github.io/SAChatBar/

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Offline HecKel

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Re: Licensing Issues (Was: Re: SMF to attend O' Reilly's OSCON)
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2008, 11:11:25 AM »
Just a plugin that do the same as code tags but can highlight the code in some specific language (that you specify on the tag).
SMF 7 is where it gets good. That has time travel. You can go back and post before the guy who flamed you. :P