An update on 2.0

[motumbo]

Rudolf,
Did you test that on all common browsers?

IE{5,6,7}, Firefox {1,1.5,2.0}, Safari {1.3,2.0,3.0}, Opera {8,9} just to name a few
It can go on but the deal is getting every browser to display it right

Do you know how few people even use IE5 anymore?  My goodness, everyone should just forget about it.  It's dead.  Less than 1/2 of 1% of visitors to my websites use IE5.5 or under.

IE5 is ancient, buggy, and a huge security risk.  There are plenty of alternatives out there.  There is no excuse for anyone using IE5 and even less of an excuse for supporting it these days.

If people refuse to upgrade to something from this century, it is their problem.  Further, I can't see how anyone could argue, if anyone would attempt to, that moving to Divs/CSS is not a good idea because a small minority of people are using ancient browsers.

In a one days work you could easily do a template that works 90% the same in all the browsers. That's a pretty good match.
Now count the templates that are in the default theme. 56 templates, but most of them are very similar.
This thing is really old, it's been years that people say to move towards semantic layout.

See, there is no way I could customize the default SMF theme to Divs/CSS in an hour.  I'm not very familiar with the code or the myriad of places where it is buried. 

Now, if you can do it in such a short period of time, how come the developers of SMF can't?  Again, we've established that there is no good reason to rely on tables anymore in this current era.

So why such stubbornness to move away from tables for layout?  I just do not understand it.

Seriously, if one was familiar with the SMF templating system, such as a developer, it would not be hard to do away with the majority of the tables for layout.

People have been raising this issue for years now.  That is why I was so blown away when I looked at the HTML for the SMF2.0 forum and saw it was a tabled layout.

At the rate SMF changes, if SMF2.0 uses a tabled layout, I wouldn't expect a tableless layout until 2009 or 2010 at the earliest.

I take it as a flaw too.

Yup.  I don't know how SMF can compete when it is relying on ancient tables for layout when phpBB is moving away from them.

Have you seen the new phpBB3 theme?  Nice!  Man, if SMF could do something like that, it would be great.

Anyone who knows anything about web design will tell you this:  do not use tables for layout.

Hopefully the SMF developers who donate their time and skill into making the forum will take heed and make SMF even better by moving to a tableless layout.

   

[Marmot]

I have to add my agreement to those who have already voiced concern about tabled design. Adoption of SMF would be much higher if it were to drop the tables. The new RC of phpBB3 is actually a VAST improvement... and if SMF doesn't change it might be something worth checking out for everybody wanting to customize their own forum without having to wade through tables.

Rudolph, if you were to release your div based template I bet you would have more than a few takers...

[Peter Duggan]

Do you know how few people even use IE5 anymore?  My goodness, everyone should just forget about it.  It's dead.  Less than 1/2 of 1% of visitors to my websites use IE5.5 or under.

IE5 is ancient, buggy, and a huge security risk.  There are plenty of alternatives out there.  There is no excuse for anyone using IE5 and even less of an excuse for supporting it these days.

If 0.5% of users were on it and you had 100,000 users, you'd be disenfranchising 500 users by actively dropping it. So, no, I'm not suggesting going out of your way to 'support' it, but accommodating it within reason is still perfectly laudable.

If people refuse to upgrade to something from this century, it is their problem.  Further, I can't see how anyone could argue, if anyone would attempt to, that moving to Divs/CSS is not a good idea because a small minority of people are using ancient browsers.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=divitis

Now, if you can do it in such a short period of time, how come the developers of SMF can't?

They can...

Again, we've established that there is no good reason to rely on tables anymore in this current era.

And they know that...

So why such stubbornness to move away from tables for layout?  I just do not understand it.

Look, half the Team have done semantic demo templates and AFAIK it's happening...

Hopefully the SMF developers who donate their time and skill into making the forum will take heed and make SMF even better by moving to a tableless layout.

But not just because you keep harping on about it! So, sure, I'd welcome a clear statement from the Developers, but this perpetual all-out attack is achieving nothing that's not going to happen anyway...

[SleePy]

For your information look at parts of the site. They already are tableless.
It just requires time, Which in a project full of Volunteers it may take some time to complete the project. We all have lives we must attend to everyday, we have jobs we must go to, we have bills to pay (and for a few of us having to pay for all of this to be here). So around our daily lives that we must do we try to fit in some time to do this.
So thats why it make take some time. Not everyone has hours on end to sit there and redo stuff and such as some of us.

[Rudolf]

For your information look at parts of the site. They already are tableless.
It just requires time, Which in a project full of Volunteers it may take some time to complete the project. We all have lives we must attend to everyday, we have jobs we must go to, we have bills to pay (and for a few of us having to pay for all of this to be here). So around our daily lives that we must do we try to fit in some time to do this.
So thats why it make take some time. Not everyone has hours on end to sit there and redo stuff and such as some of us.

I have to do everything you listed up there, and even if I'm not a team member I actually try to fit in some time to work on SMF. Finding bugs, writing mods and well, I found one hour to work on this template stuff too. It takes time to finish one thing or another, sometimes months, but never years.
The problem is that SMF follows a closed development strategy, which has it's disadvantages. You ask people to contribute with ideas, feedback, but it gets ignored because the few developers (I think 3 at the moment) who are working on the project don't have time to look at it.

I assure you, Sleepy that those who have the skills and experience to contribute substantially to the project are all people with everyday lives, jobs and family. The problem is that most likely they just turn away from SMF, because it's quite hard to effectively contribute to the project for outsiders. No wonder that you don't find people suitable to become team members. You put up some bars, but you don't let people to reach them.

[metallica48423]

well said, rudolf

[redone]

Quite honestly what other projects are doing has no bearing on our direction. We have always made a commitment to deliver the best release we can. We have never disappointed anyone with a new release and I doubt anyone will be disappointed when we release the next versions of SMF.

To pretend the issue you bring to the table (no pun intended!) has been ignored or not answered would be wrong.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=157209.20

Locked pending future updates.